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#1 June 29, 2006 13:31:00

cuckoosympho
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

http://www.israelshamir.net/friends/fiestaresponses.shtml

Dear Israel,
What we agree on, the elemental, human, and divine right of the Palestinians to justice and freedom, is far more important than any disagreements in analysis. I am sure we also agree that the salvation of the Jewish soul demands the ending of this unspeakably brutal oppression, which the Palestinians have done nothing to deserve. And on the need for anyone of conscience to speak out against the earth- and heaven-defying hypocrisy of apologists for the historical Likud/Labour axis that for nearly a century now, under various names and under various pretexts, has plotted and acted to dispossess the native population of Palestine, without in any way furthering the goal of Jewish security and survival--on the contrary.

I am doubly flattered to be quoted by you, and in juxtaposition with Noam Chomsky. Let me now clarify where we do disagree:

1. You are a writer, an outstanding one. Surely you can recognize a metaphor when you see it: the U.S. State Department official referring to Israel as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" is wrapping a political and strategic truth in a literary image. The U.S. has no need to land a single aeroplane on Israeli soil for the metaphor to be valid. However, in the final analysis, if in the Arab world the masses ever come close to threatening their traitorous rulers, the metaphor will no doubt become physical reality.

2. As for Turkey, where exactly is the contradiction? The Turks are historically quite practiced at oppressing the Arabs. Isn't there already a tacit 3-way U.S./Turkey/Israel alliance?

3. Israel does not owe it's existence to the U.S., however dependent she is now on the American empire. It was the dominant empire of the time, the British, who fostered the development of the Zionist entity in Palestine. If in the end there was a falling out among thieves, that doesn't change the two decades during which the British actively encouraged immigration, the training and organization of a Jewish army, the growth of Jewish political institutions all the while keeping the Palestinians divided, weak, subjected to arbitrary rule, and militarily suppressed. Do you imagine there was a powerful Jewish Lobby in London? All the Rothschild wealth was as nothing to the might and wealth of the British dominion. As no less an authority on imperialism than Winston Churchill stated in the early 1920's, "the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine is in accord with the best interests of the British Empire."

Why? Because settler states imposed on and alienated from the native population must, of necessity, act is imperial agents in order to thrive and survive.

4. It's true Palestine has no oil wells. But the Arab world does. And what would happen to that precious supply of black gold if the Arabs ever achieved genuine independence? So it's very useful for the U.S. to have a tough cop on the beat, to keep the Arabs off balance. The Israeli pitbull was loosened against the nationalist Nasserist regime in Egypt, first by the French and the British--by then doddering past their prime--and then by the U.S. And this game succeeded most gratifyingly from the U.S. imperial perspective: the nationalists who were wanting to move towards the development of independent advanced industrial states have been replaced by servile toadies like Sadat and Mubarak. Israel dealt a fatal blow to hopes of Arab independence in the 20th century.

5. Israel was not a liability during the Iraq war--only an asset the U.S. had no need to make use of, given its stable of loyal Arab lackeys who needed only that Israel stay out of the limelight. Again, should these lackey regime be overthrown or threatened, rest assured the Israeli pitbull would again be tearing at Arab calves all throughout the Middle East. What other significance, do you imagine, does the U.S.-sanctioned Israeli nuclear capacity have?
6. There used to be a powerful China Lobby, dedicated to the non-recognition of Beijing and the maintenance of the Nationalist Chang-Kai shek fiction in Taiwan. It feted and fed congressmen and senators, just as the present Israel Lobby does. Admittedly, it lacked the population base and quite the wealth of it's Jewish counterpart, but its fate ought to be an object lesson. Once the U.S. moved to accommodate itself to Maoist China, the power of the China Lobby evaporated. One may expect the same to happen to the Israel Lobby if U.S. strategic interest in the Middle East should undergo some sea-change (to me not foreseeable in the near future, alas for the Palestinians).

7. U.S. policy towards Israel would be exactly the same if there was not a single *** living in the U.S., although the propaganda task facing it would be significantly greater. But what "Timor lobby" was there that controlled U.S. attitudes towards East Timor? Lobbies are useful disguises and surely the State Department would rather have people believe in the power of the Jewish Lobby than to have it's naked interests and cynicism clearly exposed. But lobbies are neither necessary nor sufficient for the making of imperial policy.

8. None of what I say above contradicts or diminishes the importance of countering the Israel Lobby, which you suggest. They play a sinister role which, apart from what it contributes to Palestinian suffering, confuses vast numbers of North American Jews and subjugates them to interests quite opposed to their genuine needs.

9. Like you, I reject the nonsense that criticism of Israel feeds anti-Semitism. On the contrary. Jews opposing the brutal hegemony Israel wields over the Palestinians can only give thinking people less reason to be anti-Semitic. (Not that people so inclined need "bad" Jews to believe the worst about Jews, since such beliefs arise out of their own pathology, not in reaction to anything real Jews--good or evil--do in the real world.) However:

10. To imply that the Jewish Lobby initiates and maintains U.S. policy would be fine, were it true. But it isn't. So it can only feed Protocols-of-the-Elders-of-Zion type paranoia of people who don't know any better. And, perhaps worse, it is also a red flag--if I may borrow your metaphor--that diverts the bull from the real enemy: the toreador with his stiletto. In this case, the U.S.

11. Finally, I respect and honour the righteous anger that burns through many of your writings. But I needn't tell you, we must remain compassionate not only towards the victims, but also towards the deluded and naives ones among those who support, if unwittingly, the oppression we ourselves oppose. There is that in your tone sometimes, I fear, will lessen or negate the impact of the truths you so eloquently express. This Jewish Lobby theory of yours, whatever partial truth it does contain, veers in a negative direction.
I trust you will accept my lengthy rebuttal, or attempt at same, for what it is: a sign of respect. I would ask you to share it with your list. But I don't see you under obligation to do so.
Yours,
Gabor
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My name is Miriam. I am a NY Jewess, very sickened by what is going on in Israel, and enraged by the blessings of my own government (using my tax dollars to blast teenagers from apache helicopters!) and the Jewish lobby here. I am only slightly encouraged by what seems to be a faint lifting of the head by the enfeebled left in Israel. A sit-in at Bronfman's office would be a fine thing!
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Dear Israel:
Great piece, as always!
Which gives me an idea: PMWatch is spinning off in the next few weeks focused efforts on the NYTimes, WashPost, NPR, and a couple of other media outlets. We've already spinned off http://www.cnnwatch.net . Your piece has given me the idea of setting up a web site that watches the activities of the ADL, AIPAC, Camera, HonsetReporting, etc. -- i.e., the major pro-Israeli groups -- and organizes people to neutralize their actions. Any ideas you may have on this would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ahmed Bouzid

http://www.pmwatch.org

I think it is important to discuss the strategy of action, and the letters of the friends of Palestine present a step in this direction. Shamir
The new article by Israel Shamir is misleading. He dismisses the scientific notion that US Imperialist interests are the reason behind its support to Israel. He does that for a very clear reason; to further his thesis that the "Jewish lobby" is behind the unleashing of this "pit bull". This logic is unsubstantiated and very dangerous for the Palestinian liberation movement. It absolves the US and its Western allies from their responsibilities of all the war crimes it committed against the Arab and Palestinian people through their unconditional support for the Zionist project, which is a Western project and not a Jewish project. It also absolve the Arab puppet regimes from their betrayal of the Arab people in general by shifting the blame on the "Jewish lobby" rather than their allies in Washington and the other western capitals.
Hanna
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Dear Hanna, I think you are reading too much into Shamir's article. Furthermore, there is no such thing as a "scientific" notion regarding politics. There are different "theories" held in the minds of different people. I personally agree with Shamir that the surest way to weaken the Zionist Entity is to take to task American Jewish Zionists.
Sami B. Mashney
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While American 'Imperialists" may have something to do with our support for Israel, I have observed the situation long enough to say that without the support for Israel from American Zionist sympathizing Jews, this country wouldn't be so strong for them. So I agree with Shamir.
Roger Alexander
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I am afraid that writers like Dr Mate have their hearts in the right place, but are naive in so many ways. I wonder if Dr Mate has read Israel Shahak's books, or those of Victor Ostrovsky, or that of Seymour Hersh, among so many tell-all books. It is hard to read his analysis and imagine that the Israeli lobby in the U.S. is just an innocent pawn of U.S. machinations. I believe there is definitely an element of "I'll pat your back if you pat mine," but I think Dr Mate has the dog and his tail in reverse. I was once overlooked in an AIPAC organized function, and the president of AIPAC was conversing with some of his right-hand fellows, and I suppose he didn't notice my little presence on a chair nearby. The subject of discussion was the Marc Rich affair, and what I overheard that day only confirms to me that the AIPAC lobby is far from an innocent group of people led astray by U.S. strategic interests. One only need look at the plotting and planning going on in the House International Relations Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia to know that these pro-Israel Jewish congressmen didn't just happen to become members of that subcommittee by sheer chance. They planted themselves there on purpose, and they bark at any member of the U.S. administration who dares not to follow their bidding. I have a friend who works in the Federal Reserve, and he told me recently that anyone who dares to utter a word against Israeli policies to AIPAC members there, gets pounced upon by what he calls "attack dogs."
Margaret
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I too admire Chomsky enormously, but the reasons he advances for American support of Israel amount to no more than boilerplate--both in the sense of a reflexive set reaction--as well as self-defence and perhaps even self-deception. Political economy and globalist geopolitics are very safe antagonists, rather like weather; they are devoid of agency or remedy. As defensive boilerplate Chomsky's analysis serves to define and limit the terms of debate and inquiry and thus to disqualify opposition and the clear identification of the interlocutors and protagonists. Consciously or not, it's ultimate purpose is to disarm what it views as anti-Semitism by means of a coherent, if very abstract and counterintuitive, explanation. It is a meteorological, rather than a political analysis. n his recent book The New Dealers' War, Thomas Fleming describes how Roosevelt dealt with Zionist lobbyists. FDR would glad hand them, listen with great concern and sympathy as they made their case for American support for Israel, and then describe to them in vivid terms the jihad that would engulf the Arab world if Palestine were partitioned. He would then blithely usher them out with his assurance that they "wouldn't want that." As the Cold War began the Zionist lobby found a more sympathetic ear in Truman who accepted a bag of cash and media support for his re-election campaign. James Forrestal and the State Department couldn't--for the life of them (and quite literally in Forrestal's case)-- see any American national interest served for American support of the partition of Palestine. Forrestal's old Wall Street crony, Bernard Baruch, tried to warn him off the issue to no avail and showed up a short while later as a pallbearer at the funeral. Today there is not one member of congress who will oppose Israel's settlement policies in Palestine, much less call for the rule of international law in guaranteeing the right of return. This is not politics in a democratic republic; nor is it manufactured consent; it is terror and tyranny. I see that the Protocols have put in their obligatory appearance in the responses to your blasphemy in uttering the name of g-d. It is interesting that the most enthused, provocative, and applauded parody of these, Thomas Friedman's The Lexus and the Olive Tree, which celebrates global financial rapacity, cultural anomie, and universal deracination, features the odious rooted sustenance of Palestinians in its title. It is a very self-confident matador who can sarcastically hold the muleta over his heart. Friedman knows the rules: the blinders on the boilerplate may be opened from within but not from without.
Dan
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What I most liked about your original San Fermin piece is that it rejectsthe all-too-tempting conspiracy explanation and points to the sheer irrationality of US policy, which I am sure both the former and the present President Bush are actually aware of. This is precisely why there is (as Gabor interestingly recognises in the end, despite using conspiracy language throughout his reply) huge scope for reaching out to those "victims of naivety", using language such as "Israel's and America's TRUE interest in a just peace..." It is extremely important for everyone in the struggle to realise that indignation against Israel is not inherently, and should not remain, a "left-wing" view. This is why the "hypocrisy" - as it is rightly called by Gabor - of official America is DOUBLY frustrating for those of us who, by and large, see the US as an historically progressive force for freedom (despite the blinkered vulgarity and bullying that comes so natural to all superpowers). I am a pro-globalisation libertarian constantly arguing against what I see as Utopian or authoritarian left wingers on economic and social issues, yet when it comes to Israel's outrageous treatment of the Palestinians, these same people are normally the ONLY ones I can agree with. Why on earth does it have to be so? Erasmus
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I am one of the founding members of the Jewish Alliance against the Occupation and Palestinians and Jews Unite of Montreal, Canada. We have vigils every Friday outside the Israeli Consulate downtown. The Bronfmans are from Montreal. They have a major presence here. There is a cultural centre that puts on plays called the Saydie Bronfman Centre. There is the Bronfman Building of Commerce of McGill downtown on Sherbrooke. There is a small building on Peel Street called Seagram's- the whiskey company at the root of their fortune and conveniently close to the Israeli consul. In the coming week there are meetings of the 2 above mentioned groups.I could consider suggesting a demonstration outside one of the visible Bronfman buildings. However, I have a few hesitations! How public is the family's support for Israel? (Very. ISH) How much money to they contribute to Israel? Is the family divided on the issue? (Not that we know. ISH) I appreciate what you write and I appreciate what Gabor Mate a man of great intelligence, whether writing about medical politics or Israel in the Globe and Mail, whose son is member of the alliance, produce. Perhaps, like on June 8, we can collectively , at least in North America, organize demonstrations against the visible Jewish " leaders" who most publicly identify and justify Israel's shameful policy towards the Palestinians.
Robert
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I entirely agree with your analysis. I have lived through the whole period since the beginning of British occupation until April 1948. Of course the British were the first perpetrators but in the last period of the mandate the US used tremendous leverage on the incapacitated British lion.
Shukri
--------------------------

Here are three new important responses, or rather opinion pieces re our Palestine Whodunit, the Jewish Power or the American Imperialism? (nobody proposed the butler). They are penned by three wise, good and fearless persons, the historian Susanne Scheidt of Milan; the next US President, Bob Green of Vermont; and Anton Baumgarten, the editor of www.Left.ru , Moscow.
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From Susanne:
I got to read the Fiesta of St. Fermin on my office-email-account, on Friday, during working hours. At the end of the article, I was surrounded by colleagues who are completely unacquainted with the Palestinian cause, except for what they hear from me when I answer their occasional questions.

Shamir

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#2 June 29, 2006 15:53:00

mateuszi
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

dude whos gonna read so much???

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#3 June 29, 2006 16:00:00

HardNut
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

Topic: America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

Does anyone have any doubt about it?

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#4 June 29, 2006 16:13:00

mateuszi
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

possibly

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#5 June 30, 2006 05:05:00

marcusvox2
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

quote:
Originally posted by HardNut:
Topic: America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

Does anyone have any doubt about it?

I have no doubt. American policy on the unconditional support of Israel is wrong. What has happened to the Palestinians both historically and today is wrong. There will be no peace in the Middle East while the US plays the role of hired muscle for racist Zionists.


“That man must be an intellectual; no ordinary person could be that stupid.” Orwell

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." Twain

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#6 June 30, 2006 06:16:00

koolhand
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

The US supports oppression of Palestinians? It appears to me the Palestinian leadership and the arab nations in general have done more to oppress their 'arab brothers' than anything the US has done.

If we do not support Isreal's right to exist, then who will? Should the world continue the n-a-z-i crusade to eliminate an entire race of people from the face of the earth?

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#7 June 30, 2006 06:31:00

Partizan
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

Marrcus,

it is out off topic, but are you a croat or at least originated from croatia?

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#8 June 30, 2006 07:29:00

sickandtwistedrunkguy
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR01102

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2339693.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=47

http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/misc/rushdie.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-funds.htm


America, is on the side of Freedom, and Democracy, love it dont fight it or you could one day wake up to Mahdi, if that day comes I want to be have Charlton Heston over for tea and have a few semi's at hand !!


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#9 June 30, 2006 07:40:00

sickandtwistedrunkguy
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

Two of my Hero's together [Smile]

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/CharltonHestonMedal1.jpg

http://www.medaloffreedom.com/CharltonHestonMedal1.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlton_Heston


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#10 June 30, 2006 10:45:00

roadrigoes
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America supports brutal opression of Palestinians

The title of the thread is wrong.America supports the right of Jews to exist and Jewish people to be treated equally and fairly.

Nobody should be persecuted , bullied, raped or executed for his right to choose his religion and we should stand up for these rights

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